Why is Islam losing ground in Muslim countries, gaining clout in Europe?

We present below the transcript of an interview of Pandit Satish K. Sharma by Madhu Kishwar for the Youtube Channel Manushi India. This interview was conducted for a live program on December 5, 2022. The original video can be seen at https://youtu.be/9lMNG7WeGhA

Across the Middle East and Iran, almost half the population is loosening their ties to Islam. The Arab Barometer, a research network at Princeton University and the University of Michigan reveals that “Personal piety has declined 43% over the past decade, indicating less than a quarter of the population now define themselves as religious.” 

Until the late 1970s, Afghanistan had become very westernized. Afghan women, at least in cities like Kabul, visited cafes, wore skirts and went to nightclubs. The burqa was rare and so were men in long beards. Today, Afghan girls are shot dead for going to school or not wearing the hijab. Several comprehensive surveys in the Middle East and Iran, have come to similar conclusions. They all show an increase in secularization and growing calls for reforms in religious political institutions.

However, the increasing stranglehold of Islam in the Western countries including Europe, is truly alarming. From the extremist Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia to the Egyptian cult of the Muslim Brotherhood and Syrian terrorist groups allied with ISIS, the West has backed jihadi forces at the expense of liberals and humanists. Therefore, the battle is spilling over into the streets of Europe especially Britain, Germany, France, Sweden and Denmark. The centres of power in the United States and Canada have also fallen under the sway of jihadi Islam. India ofcourse is the most vulnerable of all because of the 20 crore strong Muslim population whose leadership has unfortunately fallen in the hands of the most retrogressive and pro Pakistani elements. It’ll take more than a miracle to put the jihad genie back into the bottle.

In this interview, Pandit Satish Sharma and Madhu Kishwar take us through the dark reality of how the West has backed Jihadi Islam and unleashed global terror. And how large sections in Europe and North America are getting panicky about extremist Islam taking root in their respective countries.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma is a theologian and scholar of Dharmic traditions, and an interfaith speaker based in London. He is also a YogaAcharya

Madhu Kishwar: We’ll be discussing why Islam is losing ground in Muslim countries, but gaining clout not just in Europe but also North America, Australia and all these so-called big democracies of the world. Shockingly, Iran had to recall and ban their moral policing policy because of the rampant protests against their atrocities on the women of Iran.

How is it playing out in the UK?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Firstly, the Iran situation is an extraordinary development. But I am surprised it’s taken so long. In living memory, Iranians can remember a pre-cleric driven regime. And we all see wonderful pictures of what Iran used to be prior to the clerics taking control. It’s within living memory. In addition to that, there is a younger generation who wants to express their youthfulness and you can’t suppress that delight in being human beings. I’m delighted to see that people are expressing the joy of being alive and demanding the freedom to express it. Now clerics, sadly, tend to be the vast majority of males. In our tradition, we recognize that there is a maturing process for everyone, for men and for women. And the sadness is that most of the people who take the role of being clerics, tend to be emotionally immature. If you were to do a psych profile, have somebody sit with clerics, you would find possibly little imbalance in their nature and personality, and yet they acquired power. That power is one of violence. It’s one of domination. It’s one of denial of freedoms to other people, purely and solely so you can preserve power. And that can’t last for too long. 

The beautiful thing is that this is an internally generated rejection by the Iranian people and the Iranian women. Toxic masculinity hides under religious clothes, whether they’re crosses in a Christian tradition, or religious clothes. And we saw that in the ladies knocking the turbans off the heads of these clerics. They were those turbans as crowns, they’re given to them as part of rising in the hierarchy of the religious tradition. It’s delightful to see that resurgence of good hearted people saying, “we’ve tried this, it hasn’t worked. You’ve killed our most beautiful children. You’ve taken away the rights to laugh and dance and to enjoy music. All those things that expand the heart and help us develop really much closer relationships. We’ve had enough.” 

One aspect of what’s happened in Iran, which I think is really worth noting, is that the ladies have led this. When men engage in these issues, sometimes there is a machismo element that creeps in. Whereas we know that Devi Shakti can handle the masculine, unreasonable aggression much, much better. In the United Kingdom, it’s common for nightclubs to have women as bouncers, because they know that this nonsense that happens to young men can be dealt with with the maternal aspect, the Durga aspect as well as the Kali aspect. So I think the consequences of what these young ladies have done and then being supported by the men is a wonderful development and it’s a natural evolution that is good to see in Iran.

Madhu Kishwar: People think that this entire protest movement has the support of the Americans and the CIA, because America is at war with Iran. And since they can’t go and defeat them openly, like they did with Iraq, or Afghanistan, where they brought it down to the Stone Age, practically. Here they have cleverly supported the revolt of women around the hijab issue, which is a very genuine issue. That’s why they’ve been able to withstand it. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: The world is recognizing that the Americans have a history of thriving in chaos, they are delighted to cause chaos elsewhere. And then picking up the benefits and the profits that accrue for an aggressive approach. America is at war with itself as well. And I think we have to note that it doesn’t have the coherence that it used to have, it doesn’t have the unity. It’s literally tearing itself apart in front of our very eyes. And I think there’s a similar phenomenon. The domination of America by masculinity, by the military arms is a very masculine sort of aberration, controlled by force and domination. And that too, is now crumbling. We are seeing the American people turning against them and saying, “we don’t buy this anymore.” The Americans look to foster chaos, and they look to disrupt and disturb standard and stable civilizations. But I think in this case, there will be good that comes out if they are supporting it. And I’m sure that good is not what the Americans would have intended. 

Madhu Kishwar: You used the term masculinity, and how America has a very masculine culture. It has lots of ugly forms that include mass production of pornography. There’s nothing more ugly, gross, masculine than pornography. But at the same time, I find that the feminists in the West, including America, England, have actually demasculinized the males. The macho culture is in their head. But in terms of actual ability to defend themselves, if a mob of 500 Islamists were to come into a Muslim or a British neighborhood, I don’t think they would be able to come out and defend themselves. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: In the UK, we have both parts represented. And I think what the Americans have successfully done is actually diminished the divine feminine in men and in women. And so the masculine aspect of a woman’s form is representing itself to reject the toxic masculinity that has started to appear in males, those who are dominating and who are actually in positions of power. But the average person on the street has been undermined to such a degree, psychologically, emotionally and intellectually, that they have no clarity of vision. They have no stability of identity as men, and certainly no stability of identity as women as well. So it’s a complete chaos in that sense. 

Madhu Kishwar: Women’s liberation has actually done as much harm to women. The manner in which it’s been conceptualized, women have lost their undermining ability. They have belittled everything that was beautiful about the feminine, they want to disown it, they consider it oppressive, including motherhood, which in our culture, at least, is almost a worship worthy role. It isn’t drudgery, it’s a celebration. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: It mustn’t be ignored, that the evolution of American identity has been strongly molded by Christian ideals. And they have a reputation and a requirement to diminish the power of the feminine, whether it’s intellectually or psychologically. Women are stigmatized from the last 2000 years. This way of thinking about ourselves and the way in which we live is going to cause harm, pain and suffering, for generations to come. And that’s one of the things I think which has now driven people away from the Christian traditions and from the Euro-Christian ideal of how relationships should be. We’re seeing this in the United Kingdom. 

The Census of last year identified that for the first time in history, Britain is now no longer a majority Christian country. And that’s not a rejection of religion. It’s a rejection of the church’s form of Christianity. And that is a huge development. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that there are 3200 yoga teachers who I know, who are all white women and indigenous. And yet they’re teaching Yog Vidya and the divine feminine is beginning to appear and they’re rejecting this nonsense that Christianity has tried to impose, wholeheartedly. 

Madhu Kishwar: What the West does to yoga is all about the body being beautiful. It’s not about a union of mind and body. Or the Atma with the Paramaatma. There’s so many gimmicks to it. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: When you have had four or five generations of women who were denied even accepting that their physical form was divine, they’re entitled to enjoy their physicality as divine for a while longer. So it’s a process, let them enjoy this body consciousness, let them enjoy the freedom that it brings to them. And somewhere down the line yogabhyasa will do its magic. They will start to move beyond body consciousness, but at the moment, they’re just accepting that they might be beautiful creations of Devi and that’s a great thing for them to do.

Madhu Kishwar: Devi concept and this whole free sex concept of ‘my body, my right’, that they have a right to get mangled by as many men as they like and jump in and jump out of the beds of various temporary lovers. Now, that doesn’t go well. Devi means a lot of power that is based on taking full control of your life. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: It’s a journey of many lifetimes. They have only just discovered that they might be nice people, or they might actually be something positive in God’s creation and scheme of things. So they’re very intoxicated with this discovery that it is a wonderful thing to be a woman and to be a man. And so let them enjoy it for a few more lifetimes. 

Madhu Kishwar: I hope they survive the forces that they have unleashed on the world. Do you see Iran actually taking a new turn? Is it gonna be a decisive turn? Or is it just a flash in the pan? 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: It’s too early to tell and the reason I feel that is that even after 20 years of intervention by the West in Afghanistan, it only took a matter of months before the most toxic masculinity just came in and wreaked havoc and undid all of that work. I worked with people who were doing women’s empowerment work in Kabul, and places like that. And they fled, the speed with which all of this happened. So it could be reversed very, very quickly. I think what it will be down to is whether the West and Bharat as well are able to support this movement through economic sanctions and support, and prevent these extremists from taking over. Remember, the value system that they have is not our value system. The value system they have is that ideology is more important than life itself. But it’s actually been something they’ve been living with for a long time. 

Madhu Kishwar: We didn’t even know that ‘sar tan se juda’ was one of the core mandates of Islam for even the slightest of deviations. But it’s not just Iran, even other Arab nations seem to be eager to ease up. Now, where is it coming from?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Saudi Arabia is taking a little bit of a lead in this. The new wave of thought seems to be ‘we’ve had a long period to establish our strength and our power and our economic wealth. Now, we’re not going to be able to continue, so we need to evolve the society and let’s start releasing freedoms.’ Now if Saudi becomes the hub of the movement towards equality between men and women, reducing the absolute literal adherence to Sharia and looking to update it in some way of practice, if not in Scripture, I think that will ripple across the Middle East as a whole. Others will follow. But it’s a lot to accommodate in one generation. Only one generation ago, we were dealing with goat herders who suddenly discovered oil and it proved to be a curse for the whole world. So although they had their own intrinsic nobility, they hadn’t yet established how to improve beyond that into the next form of human being. They have yet to move to Dharma. 

Madhu Kishwar: But then that’s the end of Islam, if they actually move beyond those basic core mandates of Islam, which is loot, plunder, abduct and womb jihad. I won’t call it love Jihad. And the absolute firm commitment to subjugate the entire world.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I will feel that a huge step has been taken forward when the notion of Kufr is clarified. Because Kufr at the moment is used as an incredibly extreme form of justification for violence. And I’ve had conversations with clerics about this. And I’ve said that in our tradition, we see God in everything. So, we’re even more associated with acceptance of divinity than yourselves. So from our point of view, there are things in which you will not see divinity, we will see divinity there. And so who’s the Kafir, who’s the non believer? And that’s a conversation that we need to have with them. 

Madhu Kishwar: Do you believe in conversation with Islamists? We discover that Sufis were mass murderers. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: So, you use the word Islamist. And I agree that with Islamists, there is an extra level of difficulty. We’re talking about people who have been radicalized to a degree that they don’t even have the capacity to look at their thoughts and judge them. We take this as a common ability, you get an idea and then you will gauge it. Is it good or is it bad? They don’t have that faculty? So it’s very difficult to engage with them. A vast majority of the Muslim community outside, certainly the youngsters, are rejecting the horrors they’re seeing inflicted with cleric sanction. And that’s where I think the work can be done.

We’re the civilization that understood the next step in their evolution by Dharma, coexistence and diminishing suffering for everything. We have that understanding.

Madhu Kishwar: It cost us very heavily, we overdid it. I don’t want to sing the song of mutual harmony with people who believe in slaughter, who believe in decimating my existence. I do think that the ex Muslims and increasing number of them that are happening quite spontaneously are going to be a determining factor.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: In the United Kingdom, we have a tiny place. It’s almost like a crucible in which all these toxic ingredients are now being churned and stirred. And after the Leicester attacks on Hindus in Leicester and the attempt to ethnically cleanse Hindus from Leicester, I had a lot of Pakistani youngsters and leaders reach out to me saying, we do not support this. We want to engage in a conversation with you to see what we can do to limit the harm. And let’s start to improve things. And I’ll be honest, when they reached out I asked them, “can you influence the youngsters who did this?” And they said, “No”. I said, “why should I talk to you? Bring them to the table, we can have a conversation that will be worth having, but if you can’t influence them, why should I talk to you?” 

Madhu Kishwar: Were they willing to go out openly and condemn the violence? Not even that, so then what’s the point exactly of whispering an apology in my ear? 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Absolutely. I fully accept what you’re saying. What I’m saying is there is an increasing number who want to separate themselves from the actions of Islamists. They have to a large degree, decided to work with these people. These groups have worked within the British system, and they’re transcending religious fundamentalism. They are finding the benefits of friendship with diversity in all of these things, and yet somewhere deep in their history, and very deep in their psychology, is this notion that everybody is inferior and has to be converted and defeated. 

Madhu Kishwar: There’s a terrible dilemma, because increasingly the world is looking at Islamists as some kind of barbaric genocidal cult. And therefore, there’s not just phobia, but actual fear and desire to either keep it so far away that you don’t have to come near them or let them come near you. Or alternatively, to combat and defeat this genocidal force. So that negative image that Islam has forced down our attention. 10 years ago, I wasn’t speaking this language. It’s only in recent years and thanks to Google and the internet that one has been able to educate oneself about Islam.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: And I often ask people who come to me with this approach, and ask if they can find a way of moving forward and I reply that it’s quite simple. If you’re saying this is not Islam and this is not the heart of spiritual practice and everything else, all you need is to get a council of your clerics together, issue a fatwa. And if you’re not able to do that, then you can’t help the problem because these people, the clerics who radicalize are the ones who are perpetuating this strife. They’re the ones who are going to keep radicalizing subsequent generations. And if you can’t actually rein them in yourselves, then we have to work out a strategy to defend everybody who is potentially a target of these radicalizing forces. And that’s something we have to do with increasing vigor. We haven’t been doing that in the past. We have sacrificed so many people on the altar of the rehabilitation of people who we described as extremists. How many more people do we need to sacrifice? So, I would suggest that those authorities who have the responsibility of protecting the citizens, actually adhere to the most strict and clear legislation to do with human rights. 

Either human rights exist for everybody, or actually, they don’t exist. They’re just a figment of our imagination. And the people who are breaching human rights, it’s actually their choices, which are determining the society that we live in.

Madhu Kishwar: I don’t know why people continue using the term radicalizing when what they’re doing is being honest to the message of Islam, and to the life of the prophet as he lived it, the message that he gave through his life. Gandhi famously said, “My life is my message.” We don’t know how far that was true. But the Prophet’s life certainly was his message. And so they are living by it. They’re being true to it. I don’t know how we can distinguish between radical elements in Islam and genuine Islamists. So those who don’t believe in that have already rejected most of what is Islam and accept the outer shell, and a few practices. But otherwise they’re not connected to the message. So then there are nominal Muslims like there are so many nominal Hindus. Now, in the Muslim countries, do you think the ex Muslim constituency is growing large enough to force a change which is enduring in Saudi Arabia? 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I am sure there is an increasing move away from a rigid mindset. It’s not yet clear what it’s doing. But I know for example, in Saudi we have more yoga teachers now than we’ve ever had before. And you cannot be a yoga teacher without acknowledging that there is the opportunity to learn more about yourself and others. And explore this thing called physical existence, totally non Abrahamic traditions. And that’s spreading and the more benefit people get from it, the more they will realize there is an alternative. This is what I mean about us having to present the alternative better. The word radicalize, I’m so pleased that you picked it up and I used it in a particular manner. Our Dharmic lens looks at a human being and says, it took 8.4 million births for this jeevatma to incarnate in this form. And that is a Sadhana from the earth. So we have to start from that point of view. When we look at a person like that, and then see how they’ve been diminished, to becoming effectively a slave to an ideology but also giving up their life’s Pranshakti to serve Mullas, that’s what we see. When you can enslave a human being to become nothing more than an object for giving somebody else power, that is radicalizing. 

Madhu Kishwar: But Islam gives you a lot of advantages. It gives you freedom to loot. It gives you freedom to plunder, it gives you freedom to be guilt free, even if you rape women, all these things which are terribly sinful. There is a huge community support that they enjoy. If you stick to your kind, well, then you get a lot of support. We in fact feel orphaned in comparison to the advantages of being a Muslim. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: There are two aspects to this. I thought about this quite long and hard. If you look at the Abrahamic tradition, Christianity said exactly the same. You can do whatever you wish, so long as they’re not Christians or Europeans. The Doctrine of Discovery, and the Theodosian code ask to kill everybody else because they’re all animals. And then all you have to do is repent, confess, and everything is fine. It’s just as nonsensical as any other idea and it has its roots at a time when human beings were actually very immature. We were semi-barbarians. They were certainly barbarians at that time. That aspect is nothing other than a barbarian society perpetuating itself. Toxic masculinity, controlling through fears, controlling through radicalization, literally in the psychiatric sense of the word. But we have to hold that space and present an alternative. Now holding that space is what we’re struggling with. Because we have been confused as well as a result of years and decades and centuries of colonization. 

We have forgotten the ability to protect an individual, your own right to exist, to protect your society’s assets. All of those are prerequisites to the spiritual journey. Unless you can establish those boundaries, patrol those boundaries and secure those boundaries, everything is going to go. The British did a marvelous job of convincing us that those boundaries are Maya. They taught us to sit in contemplation and gaze at the label and that’s rubbish. Atharvaveda says very clearly that if someone invades your territory, you’re entitled and required as the king to cross the boundaries, go into their territories and conquer. We need to relearn that.

Madhu Kishwar: Talking about the Saudis or the Islamic world and rumblings of change within it. It seems to me that one important reason why the elite of these Islamic countries are getting restless is that most of them actually go study and have a lot of engagement with the West. America is like a second home for Saudis. I once went to Saudi Arabia as a guest of the Saudi government. And I remember distinctly that it was a women’s delegation. When we landed, the first thing they handed us were the burqa and the hijab and they said we will have to wear it wherever we go. So far, so good. We were prepared for that. But we were made to meet several women’s delegations, women physicians, business women, women in all fields of life as they are inching their way forward. And what used to amaze me is the moment they took their burqa off, and they were allowed to do that with other women, they wore the most revealing dresses that I’ve ever seen. Even in America or in Paris, when women go to work, they don’t necessarily wear such sexy outfits. So, inside the hijab were these women who were very westernized. And that is true not just for women, but also their men are going to study in various universities of the West. And obviously there’s a certain embarrassment about how they manifest themselves to the world. So it seems to me that the elite in Islamic countries, who want to be part of the global elite, are feeling embarrassed about it. 

Another thing that really charmed me was when I briefly attended what they call ladies Sangeet. There was a marriage in one of the families. And my host took me to it for a bit and believe you me, they were doing the Bollywood numbers better than the Indian actresses. They were having a ball around Bollywood songs. So clearly a denial of fun, which is what Islam is all about. Secondly, an embarrassment about presenting yourself to the world because the world sees you as weirdos. It’s very hard to take them as normal human beings, especially women, when they appear in those black tents. And there is an embarrassment among certain sections. Whereas another section, which never used hijab, for example, in Kerala, burqa was never a thing. 40 years ago, you couldn’t tell a Muslim Malayali woman from a Hindu one, as they wore the same kinds of clothes. Their diet would be different at home, but their lifestyle, their clothes, their overall value systems were not that distinct. Now you see burqa even in Kerala. They’re holding on to it, and they’re fighting for the right of the hijab, not just here, but you saw those women in England. How’s it in England? They go there to create another Islamic Republic. Is that clear in their mind?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Yes, there are people who have already stated this as their intention, that they would like to see the United Kingdom as a part of the Ummah, to have Sharia as the governing principles within the United Kingdom. And they’re quite comfortable that that’s their ideology and their end game. Totally clear, not any confusion about it. But the issue isn’t the clarity that they have. The issue is the confusion that the state and the people of British origin have. You have to remember that the British people have been taught a very watered down version of history, a version of history which was convenient for the ruling elites. That account of history has denied them the opportunity to consider what other civilizations have done and what the other histories are. I recall studying some of the Arab traditions which were pre Islamic traditions, and there was an ability in the manner in which people live their lives. There was an honor for the spoken word that if you had said something, it was written in stone. Those principles which go with human nobility were very much present. And it’s only when the British empowered the House of Saud and created this religion which is a mirror image of the worst early times of Christianity.

Madhu Kishwar: That is a very key sentence. The Islam they created is a mirror image of early medieval Christianity and their crusades. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I wanted to emphasize that hypocrisy is at the heart of behavior. You mentioned that outwardly there is this presentation, of being pious, of being not attached to the human vices of pride and appearance and all of those things, whereas internally, they are all present. Whoever created this world that we’re in was not a hypocrite. The Arabs of the pre Islamic world knew that divinity would not lie. They were certain that divinity will not be deceiving in thought and word and action. There’ll be complete integrity between all three, but it’s only the appearance of this controlling ideology. This mechanism for hacking into human beings, hacking the human mind, hacking the human heart, so that you create a slave to your ideology, and the slave will never know they’ve been enslaved. This is the process that is now underway. And this hypocrisy is something that I think more and more people are beginning to find uncomfortable. I often say in classes that the only reason a lie detector works is because the human body cannot internalize a lie and remain tranquil. It gets upset and gets disfavored, destabilized and more and more people are experiencing this lack of stability and they want harmony inside. 

We know that the state of Yog and the tranquility of the mind only occurs when what you’re thinking, what you’re saying, what you’re feeling, what you’re doing, are all in complete harmony. Only then can a person be at peace within themselves, and engage with the wider world. But this notion of hypocrisy that you’ve raised, that aspect of hypocrisy being not a divine characteristic, is something I think more people should emphasize. And more people within the Ummah should ask those questions. How is it possible that a noble divine being would ask them to lie and cheat and cause suffering to themselves and to other people?

Madhu Kishwar: Why is it that the Christian world, with England always in the lead, and we’ve had 300 years of experience with British colonialism, carry so much ill will and angst and hostility against Hindu Dharma, which has done them no harm? We never retaliated. We sent them back so gracefully, we could have slaughtered them. The numbers were few enough for them to be completely overpowered and decimated. Instead of being allowed to gracefully leave with all the royal ceremonies, and then we stay within the Commonwealth, and all those compromises that our leaders made with them. Despite that, they hate us. Their universities churn out hate tracks against us, and they are so generous towards Islam. Have they lost their mind? Or is it the hatred for the pre Abrahamic world? Is that what it is? It’s part of their DNA, and therefore, they can’t get rid of that.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I think you’ve identified two of the factors which I feel contribute towards this. The first was the doctrine of discovery, which said everybody who’s non white, non European, non Christian, are animals and you can kill them and do whatever you wish. And so that unleashed the plague of demons in human form, on the rest of humanity, on global humanity. And we were on the receiving end of all of their worst vices. There was nothing that they didn’t experience when they came here and elsewhere. And so that’s one aspect. But there’s something more pernicious. In 1812, the Church of England wasn’t allowed to come to India. It was excluded from the charter of the British East India Company, and William Wilberforce was given the task of changing that charter. And what he did is he created the first institutionalized anti Hindu tropes, and they publicized it from every pulpit up and down the country. The church was saying Hindus are nasty people. They’re killing their own daughters and their own wives. They have this horrible caste system, which the Brits created, as I’ve already written about. 

In that year, there were 450,000 signatures presented by Anglicans to the parliamentarians to say change this. That’s how they institutionalized this notion of anti Hinduism. 

Madhu Kishwar: But surely your great liberal arts universities, which are great centers of knowledge, can’t make sense of the world. What are these universities about? I’d love to see them overtaken by ISIS. They should be doing to Oxford and Cambridge what was done to Nalanda and Takshashila and dozens of our great universities.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: It’s the story they tell themselves. Dharmic people, by instinct as well as by learning, look at other people with that lens and we try to understand them using our value system. That’s our first mistake. The second mistake is that when we look at them, we should look at them using their value system. And if you look at them using their value system, it’s actually very simple. You and I know that when you have the most corrupt politician who’s made lots of money, at some point in time they will want to change their public image. They’ve now got the funds to conceal their ill gotten gains. And so they will have charitable causes, they will suddenly start to sponsor, they will suddenly start to become religious in some way, shape or form, but we know that it’s a mask. We know that it’s to hide what they’ve already got. And the whole civilization of the Euro-Christian empire has spent so much time concealing the way in which it acquired wealth from its own domestic populations. They’re petrified. 

Madhu Kishwar: Abrahamics have no shame. They think they obeyed the will of God. They don’t stand up when Hindus are defamed, demonized, why should they not stand up and say we’re doing it wrong. Why are they so generous with Islam? Can’t they see the threat?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: They understand Islam. They don’t understand us. They understand the ideologies that have shaped those nations. They understand how rogues use religion to control populations and enslave them, exactly because they did the same. There are two cultures that have acquired wealth and power through enslavement and loot, and so they’re cousins. They understand each other and I wouldn’t be surprised if there have been informal agreements where they carved up the world already and said, “no poaching between our traditions.” In fact, I know that the Jewish community forced an understanding with the Church of England to say, “we don’t want you transgressing across our boundaries”. They had the conversation to do this. I suspect that’s the understanding they’ve come to. Bharat it is free reign. We’ll talk about how we divide the spoils when we’ve got rid of this ideology, which will disprove the very foundations of our philosophy and civilization. So they’re in cahoots with each other and they understand each other.

The other aspect is that the population in the United Kingdom, by and large, don’t know what’s going on. They have been themselves indoctrinated into an understanding that the existing power structure is good, is benign. We saw 10 days of funeral processions, what was that? It was seeding Sanskar into the minds of children. That there’s something incredible about this royal family. There were children and grownups traumatized in tears, though they’ve never had any engagements with these people. They didn’t know about the atrocities that were inflicted upon the non Christian world, under the rule of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth. By and large, they are naive and innocent. And there are definitely a group who if they knew about it, would actually join in with us. The Islamists and the Abrahamists, have to make sure they deconstruct research in Bharat before their own populations realize what a bunch of scoundrels they are.

Madhu Kishwar: What are the techniques that Islamists are using to take control over the so-called liberal institutions of the Western world, their universities? Even if they hate us, they should have less reason to love them. Because Islam is going to be unforgiving. Let’s face it. They’re not going to be kinder to the Christians, no matter what. Already you see what they’re doing to the daughters, the British youngsters, little girls who are being groomed into sex slavery. So they’re not behaving very well.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Horrific, though it is, it’s also worth recognizing that they’re all working class girls. So the ones who are being targeted are not part of the elites. They were very much the working class. The people who have been enslaved by the British elite. And the elite is not bothered about these. We’ve had five investigations which are a national scale investigation of inquiries into this abuse of young children. And when it came to the sexual abuse of young girls the last inquiry, the places that they went to conduct the inquiry, were not Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, Huddersfield or Sheffield. They were none of those places. They went to remote places where there was no phenomenon.

Madhu Kishwar: Why would they be so callous? Child abuse in India worries them. Child abuse of their own youngsters doesn’t bother them one bit. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Where’s the evidence that it does? I know that Sarah Champion, who was one of the Labour Party MPs, really extended and exposed herself in terms of defending this cause. She was immediately removed from the ministerial front bench position in the Labour Party and demoted to the back benches. And this has happened time and time again. I think you’ve introduced an idea which is probably worth mentioning. In 2010, there was a report that the Labour Party had been infiltrated by extremists, and that they had a plan. Warren Buffett said that an idiot with a plan will defeat a genius who has no plan. These guys have got a plan and they’re executing it with military precision and commitment. And you have to appreciate the manner in which they’re doing it. It’s systematic, it’s direct, they have studied the landscape, and they know how to do this and they’re doing it. And it’s gotten to that stage where the left, certainly in the United Kingdom, relies on their support in order to retain power. 

If the Labour Party lost the support of the Muslim community, they would not hold an election in the foreseeable future. And it’s become so bad that the Labour Party in supporting these minorities, the toxic elements of minorities, have also alienated their working class because their working class was the core support for the Labour Party. And so labor is in that conundrum now. 

Madhu Kishwar: This is exactly what Modi Ji is doing. The Hindu hardcore vote bank that Modi Ji commanded is deeply upset and that includes me, at his shenanigans and his generosity towards this genocidal cult. He is giving them good certification. He’s setting up enormous privileges for them. Already our Constitution, as you know, treats them as special creatures, and gives them special rights which the so-called majority doesn’t have. But more importantly that they have the first right over our resources. Modi Ji is doing the same. Is it then the nature of electoral democracy that produces very cowardly leaders who don’t dare to stand up for even their own people? 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I think there is an element of it. And I also think there’s an element where we overestimate the moral strength of people who seek political office. They can be bought and sold. By and large, they can be bought and sold. And this is a fundamental part of what’s going wrong in the United Kingdom. What we’re seeing is a ghettoization. So, there are definitely areas for example, the area in Leicester had been majority Muslim, and then a lot of Hindus moved there because it was a low income area. And that’s contrary to the ghettoization policy of many parts of the Labour Party. They worked out this model that if you create ghettos, and then you appoint community leaders, those community leaders can be manipulated or guided towards corralling all of the votes and giving them to one particular party. That may be wonderful for getting you the votes and getting into power. But as far as social cohesion is concerned, and integration is concerned, and multicultural evolution and getting to know each other and evolving, that goes straight out the window. 

The Labour Party has been engaged in this ghettoization. So the political entities are definitely supporting creation of ghettos and areas where there is going to be friction at the boundaries. 

Madhu Kishwar: I don’t know why you call them ghettos. Ghettos are places where the poor get huddled together, because the others won’t accept them. Or because they don’t fit in and therefore they get huddled together. In this case, Islamists always prefer to live among their own because that’s what gives them more power. And they create mini Pakistans and Sharia states. You can’t enter those areas, they make sure of that. Whether it’s India, or England, I believe the same thing is happening now in Canada, wherever they are concentrated in large numbers. Neither the police nor other people dare enter those areas. That’s their launch pad for terrorizing others. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Well, this is their success at manipulating circumstances and adapting. The Ghetto was the creation of Warsaw. Ghetto was by the Germans in an attempt to corral for their own power structures. So this is what the Labour Party I feel has been doing. But the manner in which the principles of democracy have been perverted to diminish democracy, is definitely something that the powers that be have to deal with. And that’s the classic question, where do we stop tolerating the intolerant? That’s the conundrum isn’t it? 

Madhu Kishwar: And look for systems beyond this very crude, cruel, ineffective version of democracy. I don’t think there’s anything democratic about the kind of electoral democracy we or England or even America have today. We used to think of America as the greatest democracy that the world ever knew, but now we see how hollow that claim is. WikiLeaks and all these leaks are telling us how scam ridden those societies are.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: The very principle of democracy and why it’s a Dharmic idea is that we believe that human beings are good. And if they gather together, they will learn from their experiences and continuously refine goodness and get happier and better and more prosperous. But their ideology is that they fundamentally believe that human beings are not good. And they need to be controlled and they need to be dominated. They need to be treated in a manner which prevents them from becoming sinful and all that sort of stuff. That’s not a democratic evolution. 

Madhu Kishwar: The reason why Hindu culture or civilization put so much effort and energy into inculcating the right Sanskar with very sharp community watch, family watch, neighborhood watch, village watch and larger community watch is because human beings are not necessarily always good. They have the devil and the good in different proportions, some have more good and some have more bad. And civilized societies make sure that the good stays operative, while the bad urges are kept under control. Now, the fact is that these democracies have given power that once belonged to communities and families, to the state and the individual. There are no intervening forces and the state can even take away your children simply because the state thinks you are not bringing them up well. Now, this is absolutely new to human history. I don’t think this has ever been done before. The state has become so overpowering.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: If you dig a little bit deeper, you have to consider the possibility that these European democracies are actually not democracies and they never have been. I often call them scam democracies, because the population believes that they have some sort of input into the decisions that are made on their behalf and they don’t. Britain went to war in Iraq, in a completely illegal manner. And yet Tony Blair became the peace envoy to the Middle East. This nonsense that’s going on in Ukraine is deliberately perpetrated by an architect of war and it was done without the participation of the opinion of the British people. So these are not democracies. In fact, they are as much a Garrison state as Pakistan is. There is a ruling elite, they have a military and a police force who act on behalf of the ruling elite. And the population has been sold the notion that they have some sort of democratic input because of this drama that unfolds in Parliament every Wednesday, question time and all the rest of it. The closest scrutiny reveals that they are not democracies, and in fact, Bharat is more of a democracy. Because we have more of a chaotic access to manipulation and power in the hands of the population than any of these democracies do.

Madhu Kishwar: But we seem to be a manipulated democracy. Sometimes I feel our democracy is commands coming from Pakistan and sometimes from America. You really can’t tell which are the decisions we’re making on our own initiative. None of the laws that we are passing have been actually drafted and thought through by us. And now the globalist agenda is determined to dismantle all institutions in order for a certain global power elite to take over and decimate maybe 80-90% of the population. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I was at a meeting of European investors in India a week ago, and they were investors from European countries, very, very prominent names. They were all talking about how Bharat’s trajectory over the next decade is going to be wonderful, GDP is going to rise, etc. And they wanted to be a part of the glory. And in the room were gathered many of our leading lights in terms of investors and people who’ve created unicorns and all these people. A part of my awareness just flicked back to history. And I thought this is exactly what happened when the first colonialists came. They came wanting to trade, and they came wanting to participate in the wealth and the kings gathered and they could not distinguish between vulture investors and angel investors. And I was watching the Europeans speak of Bharat’s projected GDP trajectory, and it was exactly the same energy I was picking up from them. Maybe I’m doing them a disservice, but I definitely had that worry that we potentially haven’t learned the lessons of history when it comes to dealing with Europeans who do not have a Dharmic understanding. 

Madhu Kishwar: Do our own leaders have the Dharmic understanding? It’s hard to find. But more importantly, what is it that Islamists are doing right? For example, take the case of Al Jazeera from Qatar. But they hired British journalists, mostly BBC hijacked journalists, to run it. And the BBC hijacked British journalists, and media persons are doing a great job of serving the most rotten Islamist agendas. How do they handle this? 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: They have always been a PR and marketing front for colonialist powers. The biggest job of the BBC throughout the period of its history, was to conceal the atrocities that were being done by the colonialists around the world, and to reinforce the message that in fact, they were superior and everybody else was inferior, and it hasn’t changed. We have regular confrontations with the BBC because of its unbelievably ridiculously biased reporting. You may have seen we had a protest outside their offices and they’re intransigent. They’re not interested. We present to them clear examples where they have misled the public. For example, they published that Mathematics came out of a lost Arabian library. I objected to this and presented the evidence and so on. They didn’t accept it, not because what we presented was flawed in any way, but because of policy. They have a policy to not let Bharat and the indigenous civilizations discover what was done in colonialism, or talk about what was done in the Commonwealth. Britain now needs Commonwealth resources, and that colonialist dividend that all of the European countries had, is gone. And now they’re looking at a nation like Bharat which is recreating wealth without stealing from other nations. And they don’t know how to do it. They’ve never done it. 

Madhu Kishwar: But why is the Indian elite so keen to partner with them? How have the Islamists become so smart that they can hire them as their dancing puppets and they can make them do what they like?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Because they are playing a great game. The British had this notion of the great game. I think Kipling gave it those words. And we’re just saying, “Guys you carry on in fighting the playground for the great game, just leave us alone.” And they won’t leave us alone because as long as we exist, our philosophies represent a threat to their control. Their population understands it is a better way of existing. And they did for a long time. Bharat was the place where everybody came to find themselves, to be free of identity, politics and oppression, to rediscover what it is to be a human being. Can you imagine how threatening that is if you’ve built your history, your power, wealth and resources on denying that to your own population? They’re petrified!

Madhu Kishwar: But aren’t they petrified of Islam? The moment Islamists become 30 to 40%, which won’t take long given the speed at which they reproduce, and the shrinking British population, then 30 to 90% is a matter of years, not decades.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: 80% of the population are passive. And it’s only that 10-20% who decide the course of history. I think the British have actually miscalculated. I share your concerns. I think they have elevated Islamists to actually do what Christendom and the Christians can no longer do openly, which is direct physical violence, without restraints to get what they want. And the Islamists are the ideal vehicle for that. And so the British and the Americans, the Euro Christian have always used extremists to do that work for them. What I think they have estimated is that when their work is done, when all of the nations that they have ruled are no longer able to challenge them anymore, then they will deal with this particular problem. And I think they have miscalculated.

Madhu Kishwar: China’s already out of the reckoning. Not only China, Japan walked its own course. It’s not a slave state. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I am encouraged to hear what’s going on in Africa as well. There is an indigenous African voice saying to France to go away. We don’t want your control anymore. We don’t want you in control of our currency. So these indigenous voices are reappearing. 

Madhu Kishwar: Africa is likely to be less significant because they don’t have much to fall back on. Memories of grandeur, memories of having ruled themselves, because there they mangled them completely. But the eastern hemisphere is certainly not given to slavery. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: It still has ancestral continuity, civilizational rootedness, which is why we are a threat. We’re going to see Hindu phobia, and anti Hindu attacks escalate next year and the year after. I put forward a proposal that we will see peak hatred toward Hindus probably towards the end of 2023. And then after that, hopefully, if we manage to be successful in all of our collective efforts, it will diminish. But we have to reach the populations of the West and explain to them what’s happening.

Madhu Kishwar: They only understand the language of fear and power. I have come to the conclusion that the more goody goody we are, the more contempt they have for us. It’s only when they know that if they misbehave, they’ll get such a punch in the nose, that it will be bloodied for life. That is when they’re going to behave themselves.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I agree with regard to dealing with the powers that be. They respect power. They respect a powerful adversary. But we have allies amongst the populace. And those are the allies who we need to empower and educate about who they are.

Madhu Kishwar: Islam isn’t enslaving, but wiping out humanity. We’ve said this dozens of times during the course of this conversation, they’re genocidal.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Islamist identity says that this life is not worth anything because a future life is going to generate greater enjoyment, this is naturally one which is suicidal, and also genocidal. We have a tradition of freedom of thought and freedom of expression, which are much higher levels of wisdom than freedom of religion and freedom of belief. Freedom of religion and belief have always controlled humanity, never nurtured and elevated humanity. We should stick with those as the highest levels of wisdom. We require others to adhere to it and allow us to as well.

Madhu Kishwar: I think this is the time to concentrate on developing societal power and state power. And since the state has also been so heavily compromised, the cleansing process has to be done with speed. Because like the British state, our institutions have been sabotaged internally.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Our institutions were created to create killing fields for Hindus and Sanatana Dharma. The constitution is a Chakravyuh which we have never managed to get out of yet. Pakistan was created as a killing field for Hindus. East Pakistan was created as a killing field for Hindus and that’s what they have done. So we recognize the need for us to have robust defense of the boundaries, but most importantly, for society itself to become so robust that we’re strong enough to change all of these Chakravyuh. That’s our contribution.

Madhu Kishwar: My dream for myself whether in this life or maybe my next, is to see a Bharat free of Abrahamics. I do not wish to live under the shadow of either Islam or Christianity, because both have a genocidal track record. What is your dream of Bharat? How would you envisage a Bharat that is self respecting and strong?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: A Hindu Rashtra is absolutely a necessity not just for us but for humanity. You know, the opposition have never seen borders. They have thought the world was their football and we have always respected our little boundaries and said, within this let us do our own little thing. And that’s wrong. There is a global Kurukshetra and Bharat needs to project its view of existence strongly and defend it into this adversarial space at every opportunity. Jaya Shankar Ji is a breath of fresh air. At last somebody has got the right body language and the right contribution, and that draws respect from people who are adversarial by nature. So I would love to see us get to the stage where our indigenous civilization is protected in its own homeland and respected in its own homeland. And that those who preach diversity respect that to the degree where they withdraw their attempts to commit ethnicity and cultural genocide. We have to get to that stage to make that happen. If we can do that in Bharat, the whole world will change.

Madhu Kishwar: Talking about England, since you live there. Do you think they will survive the Islamic onslaught? Are they going to collapse under the weight?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: Well, like I said, the Israelis have a plan. I see no signs of a British plan. The political individuals themselves as human beings, the government and most of the parliamentarians, are shockingly uninformed in history. They have no notion of society and how it develops and how civilizations rise and fall. It’s all absent. We have an awful lot of very vocal, but uninformed, uneducated people making policy decisions. So it’s like a rudderless ship. You’ve seen the conservatives who until relatively recently, had a coherent team ethic. They could put 12 people around the Cabinet table and come up with a consensus which said “yes, we’re going to make this happen.” They had a vision. And now we’re seeing each and every one of them pull out the knives as though they were the senate and everybody wants to be the next Caesar. 

And when that happens at the cabinet table, there is a serious problem here. The British identity has lost its commitment, and its self awareness. Even though it needed to evolve, its self awareness was actually quite confident. And that’s disappeared. And I know that there are forces who have a huge amount of money, lots of wealth, and politicians have been proven to be acquirable. 

Madhu Kishwar: Hindus don’t know how to hire puppets.

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: We had one politician, Barry Strachan Gardiner, who’s very strong on the labor side, and I think he’s received a Padma Shri as well. Now they call him Beijing Barry, because he received half a million pounds from the Chinese government. He’s certainly not reliable anymore. Turning to a pragmatic issue. We need the Indian government to recognize that there is only one party, and I’m not political. I’m not a member of any party. But there is one party which refuses ideologically to accept that India has its own democracy, and it shouldn’t be respected. And the other party is basically looking for the bottom line. Where can we make a buck, if we can get a profit we’ll be happy to negotiate, and that’s who we’re dealing with in the United Kingdom. And it’s a tragedy because there was a hope that Britain would evolve beyond this colonialism. It would evolve to the next stage, in which they recognize what they’ve done. They articulate remorse for it. They become partners in putting right the harm that they did, and then they can move to position reconciliation. That would be a good way of dealing with this. But they’ve lost their interest in that.

Madhu Kishwar: What about the rest of Europe, Germany, France, are they going to be able to withstand?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I don’t think so. I think there is an impotence associated with aristocracy, the Satvik Ahankar, that they are too above getting their hands dirty to deal with this particularly dirty problem, and that will be their downfall. We’ve already heard that many German citizens are migrating South America to other parts of the world, because the government has reneged on its responsibility to protect its own indigenous citizens. And that fits in with my theory, that the elites are only interested in a slave population. When one becomes unproductive or troublesome, asking the wrong questions, then bring in another slave population.

Madhu Kishwar: So they move to another country with a different set of slave population. What about France?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: I don’t think France is any different. France still has very strong colonial attitudes to the rest of the world. It tells liberty, fraternity and everything else, but not for the non white men. If they did, they would have long reconciled their residual issues with colonized Africa.

Madhu Kishwar: In India, they patronize among the worst of the Tukde Tukde gang. What about the Scandinavian countries?

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: They have an identity crisis in that they have actually been very prosperous. The per capita income was very high, and so they have become comfortable. And I don’t think their capacity for Shatru bodh is highly evolved. 

If Europe has a future, then it will be in the East European countries who are still saying, “our culture has something to be preserved and protected. It’s better than many others, and we will evolve and improve, but we call the shots on what happens within our borders.” Like Poland, Hungary, the Eastern European bloc. They are becoming very vocal. And they’re actually drawing a lot of support from the majority populations, even in France and Germany. The ideology appeals that we died for our ancestors and died fighting wars for our freedoms, and you’re just letting people come in. I asked the question to a parliamentarian and I said, “what’s the value of this passport when you’ve got 400-800 people coming in on boats and you’re putting up in hotels. What does this actually give us?”

The bill to the British people is about 5 million pounds per day in hosting illegal migrants. The asylum situation says that if you come to a safe country, that’s the port of call where you should stay. And if you don’t stay there and you go elsewhere, then you become a migrant. If you’re fleeing, you flee to a port, a safe refuge and many of them have fled coming to Europe saying they were asylum seekers, but they don’t stop in the country in which they found refuge and therefore they become illegal migrants. And it’s costing 5 million pounds a day.

I think of us Hindus as the stem cells of humanity. Wherever there’s a society and it’s got some sorts of problems and they don’t have doctors, we Indians go there. We become doctors, we become educators, we become whatever is needed. Bharat has to be protected. 

Madhu Kishwar: If we don’t do that, that’s where we are floundering. And that’s really the kind of heart burning people are getting from the current leadership, which seems indifferent to the risks that Islamists pose for India and the Christians, the conversion mafia, both ways. 

Pandit Satish K. Sharma: We need to take cognizance of the fact that there are many Bharatis now all over the world. And so we know the truth of many parts of the world, underneath the facade that’s behind them, and I can share that our civilizational trajectory took us to a totally different level of existence. Nowhere else, no other nation has reached that level of existence. So protect what Bharat has even if you don’t understand it. Madhu Ji, you saw many of these problems long before most of us did. And I know pioneers really struggle but you have been an inspiration to so many. The rest of the people are catching up. But we really do salute your efforts and contributions and it has been an inspiration.

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