The Genocidal Underbelly of Wokism

In an interview on October 5, 2022, French journalist Come Carpentier spoke to Madhu Kishwar on “The Genocidal Underbelly of Wokism, “. We present below a transcript of this interview. The original video can be seen at

Wokeism—defined neutrally by Wikipedia is “perceived awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice”—Early Christianity created the myth of persecution in order to “weaponize” faith and grab political power. Today’s “Wokes” are doing nothing different. 

Wokeism is about a super-elite strengthening its stranglehold on power. Wokeism is psychological oppression of the majority by an intolerant minority, but what you will hear from the average “Woke” is that the majority are intolerant, racist, bigoted. Wokeism should be seen as another form of Abrahamic intolerance and lethal aggression against those who differ with the Wokists . What Wokeism has in common with pre-Enlightenment Christianity is this intolerant strain where the academic and political elite use real victims of racism or bigotry to give themselves the power to silence others and deny other versions of the truth. “Cancel Culture” is about “my way or the highway”. If you don’t believe in my god, you are a devil-worshiper, worthy of demonisation or reputational destruction. 

Come Carpentier de Gourdon is currently the Convener of the Editorial Board of the World Affairs Journal, a quarterly publication dedicated to international issues, sponsored by the Kapur Surya Foundation (a co-sponsor of the “World Public Forum for Dialogue of Civilisations”) New Delhi, India. He shares his time between India, France, Italy and Switzerland. He is an associate of the International Institute for Social and Economic Studies (IISES).

Madhu Kishwar: Welcome to the 5th October, 2022 edition of Manushi Samvad. In the overall global context, there is an ideological warfare going on, not just agaisnt Hindu society, but all over the world, called ‘Wokism’. Wokism wears the mask of ‘liberalism’, it wears the mask of individualism. But there is an extreme genocidal ideology behind this mask. 

Come Carpentier: I want to talk about wokism, and in particular its manifestation in the campaign and promotion of what is now known as LGBTQX causes. But I want to expand the topic because I believe it would not be fully comprehensible if it is not given the wider context. Wokism is a form of extreme liberalism, the meaning that is given to the term liberalism nowadays, particularly in the US. Liberalism meant something very different in Europe and in India as well, but when the US equated it with a form of far leftism, it became a form of cultural Marxism. Cultural Marxism adapted to the culture and technology of our age. Marxism used the technologies of the time as its battle horses, steam engine, the Modern War technologies, big factories, the working class. Nowadays, Marxism has mutated into what you might call the soft power of software. And therefore it’s no longer about the working class and heavy industry, it’s about the internet, about apps, about new technologies, and about human freedom, in which the only law is basically human desire expressed individually, according to everybody’s mood. So, as a result wokism is seen as an awakening from the darkness of the past, in which people thought that there was some sort of a law of nature and that you have to conform to it broadly for your own good and for the good of society. Now all that is seen as oppression, patriarchy, everything you hear about all the time. And it has to be replaced by this so-called freedom which of course does not extend to the economic sphere. Because the economic sphere is tightly regulated and there are the haves and the have-nots. 

The rich are obviously by the very nature of the system, above the law. But all those who belong to the average population are supposed to embrace, or if they don’t embrace to be submitted to the new rules, which are being dictated by the so-called woke Elite, which is usually self-proclaimed, but which gets a tremendous amount of publicity and support from the big financial and political powers. So you can call wokism as sort of a new religion of human absolutism. There is nothing about human desires and humans themselves are not to remain human. They are going towards transhumanism which means a not so well defined post-human state. And therefore the laws of nature have no meaning in that light, because if you are a man and want to be a woman, then you can. If you want to have a child, technology can do that for you. Maybe not yet but soon. 

All people from childhood are given the opportunity supposedly of choosing their gender, and gender is sometimes associated with sex but it’s supposed to be different from sex. Because eventually being a man or a woman is not a matter of biology anymore, it’s a matter of how you feel. And if one day you feel as a woman that you are a man, then you are a man. And that has been explained by many and of course it has been confronted by people who said well if being a woman is only a matter of feeling, then what is a woman? And naturally the Wokes could not explain it. They said the woman is a woman, and in fact she’s not even a woman because there is no difference between men and women. And they can be both or either, and then of course you have all the variety that is being offered to you; LGBTQX, you know transgender. 

Children are now being taught in school that they can choose their sex and would they want to have sex with a girl or with a boy. In many schools in the west that begins at the age of six, and of course you are told that this is in the name of freedom. And if parents oppose it then that means parents are basically fascists. And they are not acknowledging the freedom of the children to choose the way they want to live.

MK: Firstly, I have a problem with allowing them to define themselves as liberals of whatever vintage. Because the basic meaning of liberal is that you let people be. I do what I think best but I allow you to think your way and live the life that you think is better for you. That’s the baseline for liberalism. To my mind wokism represents a very extreme narcissistic form of individualism, which is not even being defined by the concerned individual, but actually controlled as though by some hidden hand. What as an individual you should think and express, like you said at six years you are told you can choose to be a boy or a girl and go for sex change. One of the sickliest manifestations of wokism is the rampant sex change operations that are taking place, where even children are being encouraged to go for it. Now this kind of tampering with the bodies of others, if you do it yourself that’s okay, but you are pushing others to follow a certain path, especially little kids. Then it can’t be called liberalism.

CC: Liberalism still has to accept certain constraints which are the constraints of reality. But in the case of wokism, the reality is considered adjustable through Science and Technology. And furthermore, the whole underlying theory is that by nature you are either an oppressor or an oppressed person. Therefore, even if you don’t know it, you should break out of oppression and at the same time you should stop being an oppressor. So, that means you are by definition guilty. In many countries now, people from various professions, corporate employees, are being called into seminars where they are told you don’t know it but you are actually oppressors. And in order to change that, you should agree to listen and spend a lot of time with LGBT people who will explain to you their problems, and you should also include them in your companies, in your board of directors, in your teams. Anything you do whether it’s Sports, culture, you should have representation from those minorities which have been exploited and excluded. So, now in the name of inclusiveness, you must have members of the various communities, ethnic but also sexual. For example, you should have somebody who is a transsexual but who loves men and somebody else is a transsexual from a man to a woman, but she loves women. So you know all these things are supposed to be part of the menu as it were. 

And if you have any resistance to that then you really need to go through some sort of retraining and re-education. So it’s very Marxistic in that sense, because basically it tells you you are part of a very corrupt and very wrong system. And you must learn the truth. In the past it used to be done by teaching Marxism, Leninism and in re-education camps. Now, re-education camps are used to teach you wokism and the real truth about life and about how to correct all the mistakes of the thousands of years past, including all civilizations which have produced these terrible mistakes that we call religions which were patriarchal. We have that famous statement from one of the gurus of wokism, Yuval Noah Harari, who has become the Darling of Davos, the Davos series of conferences. He said all these religious business about God is fake news because we know that basically man is God. He can become God and gods were fabricated when man couldn’t get there, because he didn’t have the technology. But now a man can do whatever God did in the past, so who needs religions and gods?

MK Who are the originators? For example we know Marxism, who originated it, and then who carried it forward. There are specific persons who can be identified from Marx to Lenin to Stalin to Mao. There’s a whole chain that carries this ideology forward, or whichever way you want to call it. But what about this Wokism, and especially LGBTQX or whatever they call themselves or identify themselves with. Who are the powers behind it, and why should Davos have particular interest in being led by the nose by this group? 

CC: There is a long succession of thinkers and it’s probably not possible to call the Father of the movement as one or two or three persons. It developed over a period of time and you can point to the early feminists in a way. You can also point to the early so-called gay rights activists. And then you find that even further back you have the Frankfurt School of Sociology and Philosophy in Germany. The Frankfurt School made a few people quite famous. They were expelled from Germany or fled when the Nazis came to power and they moved to America where they became sort of a very influential group among the center-left Americans, or left-capitalists who found them very interesting and intriguing. Those people thought that they should destroy society because it was wrong and it was wrong at the very basis of the family, and the way in which people behave with each other. They felt that eventually a new world would take over, truly they were cultural Marxists originally. They thought this new world would be truly Marxist, egalitarian, socialistic, but it would be so not only in economic terms. Although the economy was not their main concern, it would be so in terms of human relations. And that essentially led to breaking up the traditional family structure which they regarded as feudal, patriarchal and oppressive of women and children. 

MK: That doesn’t fit in a way with their deep engagement and love for Islam. Most wokes are very pro-Islam, and they are in fact battering everybody using the myth of minorities that they have foisted onto Islamists, because Islam is a global Corporation. It is the second largest population in the world. By no stretch of imagination can Muslims be called a minority, or a global minority. In most countries also wherever they have a foothold, they’re fast expanding to acquire levers of power. And they rapidly move towards being a very tyrannical majority. What explains their love for Islam? 

CC: I think it is the traditional revolutionary dialectic to muster the support of minorities. Remember, the wokes are dealing mostly with Islamic communities in the west, because they are primarily active in Western societies. Of course, when they are active in a country like India, then they will also look for the support of minorities. And they will promote LGBTQX, they will promote Dalits, they will promote people whom they see more as instruments than real targets of their beneficence. They are really saying these people will help us in one way or another, because they will be interested like we are in breaking the control of the majority. So that has been their policy, their tactics, in fact their strategy, both in Europe and in America, where they systematically go against what they regard as the evil ruling majority. 

There is this traditional way of seeing that, for example, Jews were persecuted by the Nazis. Therefore the Jews are among the minority who are victims even though they are generally extremely well to do, extremely well educated and extremely well influential. But still that minority label somehow is tagged to anybody whether they are a color minority or a sexual minority. And the whole idea is to create this confederation of minorities to upset and overthrow the majority. That’s not so different from what Lenin did in Russia, when he started the Bolshevik Revolution, which in fact was more of a coup because he brought most of the minorities with him. The Jews, the Armenians, quite a few homosexuals along with what was considered to be the Lumpen majority, which is the workers, the poor. The poor by themselves were not that attractive to him, he needed the ethnic minorities, and the same is true of the Wokes. They do want a lot of support from the ethnic minorities, and they are not that interested in the suffering majority.

MK: Islam is not a minority religion, that’s the point I’m making. And it does not allow for individual expression. If anything it’s the most anti-individual ideology the world has ever known.

CC: In the west you are dealing with Muslim minorities, therefore they respond to that definition. And furthermore the Wokes are ideologues, they have a very long term and devious way of looking at things. They feel that by creating revolution and breaking up society, they will eventually get their way. Of course this may be completely misled and misleading, but they also are totalitarian. They basically don’t accept resistance to their creed. You have to accept it, otherwise you are basically excluded from society. That is what is happening in centers of Wokeness, like many American Ivy league universities, where if you don’t belong to the Woke Clan, you basically are a purveyor because you don’t belong. You are a Trumpist and there is simply no room for you. Like all totalitarian Creeds, they see no toleration for those who essentially are not completely embracing our views.

MK: It seems to me that Wokism is actually in a way Marxism gone haywire, a sicklier form of that. Marxism too believed in a minority acquiring power through means fair or foul, by decimating its opponents with a certain sense of pride that they are doing justice to the world, that it’s a new kingdom of heaven that they’re bringing about. But class struggle failed, so therefore they took on women. They could not convince the working class that the best thing for them was to overthrow the entire economic framework, etc. Most people in the working class prefer to climb the ladder up in the Bourgeois Society, rather than dismantle it. Because of the class struggle failure, for example in India, the left latched on to caste, and now to the religious divide. Because when they fail with one kind of division and categorization of society into perpetually warring groups, then they latch on to some other. 

So, women’s rights also got pitched in a manner that every home became a center for gender war. Every workplace became a theater for gender war, it’s not even justice, but war where you’re perpetually in conflict. In some ways it’s like Islam, you know the whole concept of Dar Al-Harb vs. Dar Al-Islam. You have to establish your power, till then you are at war all the time. But what I’m trying to get at is that its liberal facade, just as the Marxism facade of being an atheist cult, doesn’t make sense to us in India when the Marxists aligned with islamists to create the partition of India. It didn’t make sense at all, their atheism certainly can’t be supported by Islam, and wherever Islam has come to power they have completely decimated leftists. And they will also decimate wokes. You think they stand a chance in Iran or in Saudi Arabia or even in Pakistan. 

CC: Of course, not. The last few years I’ve seen some conflicts in Muslim countries between conservative authorities and reformers, some of whom were tempted or influenced by far left liberal ideas. They might not have been wokes, although in Iran there are some of them and of course they are in trouble. I once heard of a young and very bright Imam in Paris who was a leader of his community, one of the suburbs of Paris. And he was saying, “I am dealing with the number of political parties but one of them is of course far left, and it’s a voice bearer of woke ideology.” The mix of socialism and green so-called ecological, which is mostly actually social political, much more than it is ecological. That’s what you call the new left, and the new left is wake. They normally have an alliance with the Muslim communities in their areas of activity. This Imam was saying, “you know of course I completely disagree with them, I am against homosexuality, I’m against LGBT, I’m against men and women having sex outside of wedlock, all those things. But I will align with them because they are the ones who are enabling me to increase the power of my community. I am willing to concede to them for that, and when we are strong enough then we won’t need them. They’ll have done their job.” So basically, both these communities think the other one is a useful idiot, to employ Lenin’s terminology. 

Obviously, we don’t know how that will end, probably in a very bitter fight. But if I were to expand this beyond internal conflict in Western and now increasingly in Eastern societies as well, I would say that one of the unexpected effects of this, which people normally do not realize, is the Ukraine war. The Ukraine war basically is a Civil War about identity and about alignments, associations or alliances. But on the other hand it is also a global conflict between wokism and conservatism. And the Russians under Putin have become champions of conservatism. That’s why we have allied with other countries which have their own version of conservatism, like Iran, increasingly Saudi Arabia, and well you can name a few other countries which have gone along with them. And the reason for that is that the Russians who have gone back to Orthodoxy and generally speaking to religious beliefs, are convinced that this whole Woke Revolution which is being imposed on them through the youth, through the Performing Arts, through popular culture, is deeply satanic. 

Putin has been saying that for years and people in the west didn’t pay attention because these pictures were mostly essential in Western media. What he was saying was basically that these people are satanists, and they want to destroy and corrupt us. In India this might be a little puzzling because India doesn’t have that Western concept of Satanism. You can call it Asurik or you can find an equivalent in Indian philosophy and mythology. But in the west this has a very deep meaning, and you can feel that among the conservative intellectuals in Russia, and even simple average citizens, many are convinced they are fighting the devil in the form of American wokism. Whereas on the other hand of course the Americans, the West, want to convince you that they are fighting evil, fascist or Neo-Communist Russians, who are not accepting freedom, democracy, individual liberty, and who are under some sort of bloodthirsty dictator who is invading peaceful Ukraine. Of course, all that is propaganda, I’m not saying that there is no propaganda on the Russian side, but the propaganda in the west is much more obvious. Zelensky who is another woke icon has been saying, “We are pro-LGBTQX, we will make prostitution and pornography legal, and we even have LGBT soldiers, and we even have LGBT units fighting in our army.” 

It was obviously stupid, who cares in a war about who is LGBT and not? But the whole idea was to convince the West you must support us, because Ukraine is deeply with you. We are Woke too, unlike the Russians who are everything against that, which of course we hate and which we should exterminate. So much so, that the West has been talking quite openly for quite a few years about breaking up Russia. Because they cannot let the state of that size and power challenge them. They must go with them, and if they don’t go with them, they will break them up and make a number of little States like Lithuania and then they’ll have no choice.

MK: I think positioning it in this form makes a lot more sense, because a lot of people are seeing it only as a geopolitical war. But I do agree with you that it’s also a war of ideologies, and it’s not just Russia. But now for example the new Prime Minister in Italy is also speaking Putin’s language, that Wokes have come to destroy family, religion, faith and culture. You cannot have an agenda of simple destruction without any sense of what alternative institutions are going to take care of the social order. And what I also don’t understand is why the big corporations, as represented by the World Economic forum at Davos, have put their weight in favor of wokism and destruction of all manners of Institutions. What’s the connection there?

CC: The connection is in big Capital, not average rich people, who can be of many opinions, but in the very super rich, super powerful Elite, which we can certainly identify. It’s not a conspiracy theory. There are people such as George Soros who have so much money that they can literally transform countries by simply pouring money into causes that they support. And this has become very obvious in the last 20-30 years when you have a proliferation of multi-billionaires, some of them will soon be trillionaires. So, they are richer than the states, which by comparison are on the verge of bankruptcy quite often. And therefore they use their wealth to promote a certain vision of the future, which can appear to them Utopian, but which for most of the people is dystopian. Because it involves gradual suppression of all individual freedom. 

So here you are talking about Wokism supposedly being about freedom, and yet increasingly regulations and controls are making sure that you’re only behaving in the way that you are supposed to behave, otherwise you’re a bad citizen as in China. And you can be blocked from many activities and even from making a living. So these are supported by the new technologies which enable either the state or private companies which work in cohorts with the states, to monitor everybody 24 hours a day and see what they buy, what they think, what they watch, what they write and how they talk. So, once you have that system in place, there is that Utopian or dystopian thought that this can be made into a society which is finally ecologically sound. And which will entail drastically reducing the population by whatever means are accessible. Quite a few people like Yuval Hariri have said that we don’t need most people anymore, and how are you going to feed all these useless eaters. Because with technology and with robotics and artificial intelligence, most of the tasks that we entrust to people, especially those who are of lower educational level, can be fulfilled by machines. Therefore what do you do with all those people? I mean they are obviously clogging the planet, and they are creating unbearable pressure on the environment. Which by the way is true. But that doesn’t mean that you have to adopt an agenda of depopulation and decide that people have either to be reformatted into the way that you think they should be or else there is really no room for them. 

Now, this all may seem like some sort of a dream conducted by people in Silicon Valley, or in some other heavens of wealth. But definitely the Davos Forum, which is primarily a forum about money, has been co-opted by them. And the Davos Forum has become their platform. They are openly spreading that ideology and telling people that, “you don’t need property anymore because you can rent whatever you need and you can’t really eat things that are too costly in terms of Environmental consequences or effects. Therefore you will soon be able to eat insects and bugs which will be produced in factories.” All those things which may or may not happen, but which are certainly on the cards. And this is where you see that it’s sort of a conjunction between people who carry different names, some are openly Wokes, others are seen as just technocrats. Others are even neo-conservatives, because the neo-conservatives have nothing conservative about them except the will to keep America at the top of the food chain. These people all essentially agree on this form of extreme liberalism called Wokism and it’s interesting that many of the American neoconservatives were originally trotskyists in their youth. And then moved over to this new ideology which is extreme high-tech imperialism and we see a manifestation of that precisely in the war in Ukraine and in some other conflicts that have erupted in the last 20 years.

MK: Where does China fit into all this and how does it position itself in relation to these ideologies and the world economic forum’s agenda of depopulation?

CC: China is a very interesting case as it has always been in history, because China has such a distinct civilization. It has embraced throughout ages a lot of ideas from other countries, Buddhism from India and several other instances. Yet when it embraced Marxism and when it embraced capitalism in the American way, like the Chinese have been trying to copy the Americans in so many things, now they are evolving towards a more idiosyncratic indigenous form of government and society. A society which is largely inspired by Confucianism but Confucianism reviewed and corrected with Maoism, which is another form of Marxism. 

Although they call themselves Communists, you know that they are not really applying communism in so many things. But the question about China is again that the government wants control, however it doesn’t want control from outside. It wants to control its citizens which is again a Confucianism tradition, but at the same time it wants to be free from control of anyone else, because it thinks it has a greater civilization.

MK: There’s nothing left of the Chinese as a civilization. 

CC: I would not quite agree with you, the civilization has been largely occulted and sometimes destroyed, but there is a lot of it which you can find in private Chinese society and in the way that China ruled itself. I mean we may not like it, but the fact is that there is a lot about the Chinese way of managing things which is very deeply rooted in Chinese civilization. It used to be very authoritarian except it didn’t have the means that they have now. But it certainly was very authoritarian and sometimes tyrannical in the way it applied to individual people. 

The whole concept of the emperor being the father of the Empire and every family being responsible for every one of its members, which means that if anyone commits a crime the whole family is punished. All that is very much part of Chinese tradition. Now, Chinese civilization was not always able to keep the country together. They had several breakdowns and breakups and the country went haywire because there were these massive revolutions, but all in all the concept is very authoritarian. And what China is trying to do now is adapt a lot of the technologies they learned and developed from the US and from other countries, and make it subservient to their own objectives. And of course you can see that even in China there is a split between the more internationalist liberal or people who have been trained abroad and who feel that China could be a very prosperous leader of the global community. And the more inward looking kind which says, wait a minute all those foreigners are polluting and corrupting us, we need to go back to our basic values and we need to stop this.

Xi Jinping who is supposed to be the leader of the more indigenous faction who said, “we must stop our youth from becoming sissified by the West. We don’t want them corrupting us in being able to fight and protect our culture. We must be strong, we must be manly, women must be womanly and enough of this nonsense from the West, which is just meant to destroy us”. 

MK: In short, China is not letting them make entries into its own ecosystem. 

CC: It’s trying to fight it. I’m not saying they are doing so well on it, because they are mostly using force which is not very effective in such cases. But they are still certainly fighting back, that’s a fact.

MK: At least they’re not like the American state which has fallen flat in the face of wokism it seems.

CC: Trump was trying to fight it in his own rather incoherent way. That’s why Trump had so many followers in America and still does. Trump is still the most popular politician by far in America.

MK: And how he’s been completely banished from social media platforms, are you saying all these platforms are now Woke controlled?

CC: Oh yes. I mean let’s face it, Silicon Valley was Woke to begin with or at least it became so very early on, and it set up all those companies such as Google, Facebook, Twitter. They are all run by liberal wokes who were from the beginning pining for Obama, for Biden and who couldn’t stand Trump. They were doing anything they could not to let him come to power and then to overthrow him, and while he was there they constantly sabotaged his initiatives, whether they were good or bad. So they had an absolute opposition to Trump, simply because he wasn’t coming from that school of thought. And he was thinking more like a typical 1960s American who believes in individual freedom, but also in the family, the Bill of Rights, people’s Christian values, whether or not he applied them is another matter. 

MK: Where does Narendra Modi and the BJP fit in this scheme of things? They’re obviously seen as enemies by the wokes which is why very very noxious attacks on BJP and Modi in particular have taken place. I don’t know what they’ve done to deserve it, because they’re not yet guilty of any of the things that they’re accused of. The label fascist for example. When has it carried out mass murders or whatever? How do they target BJP and Modi in this very determined and nasty manner? What have they got against him? 

CC: It’s rooted in the philosophy of the RSS, obviously the RSS is extremely unpalatable to the liberal West, especially to the Wokes. RSS upholds a system of values rooted in Indian cultural tradition and it is seen as the archetypical conservative organization, paramilitary in its system and hierarchical and therefore opposed to revolution and subversion. 

MK: They love PFI and they hate RSS. RSS is not weapon trained, at best they carry that little Lathi, but PFI is a weaponized fascist organization. They seem to have no problem with that.

CC: They have no problem with terrorism as long as terrorism is essentially breaking your traditional societies in its own way. On the other hand, what they fear about RSS is the doctrine, the thought. They are afraid of the thinking of the doctrine which is being propagated. And there is no question that Prime Minister Modi is a product of RSS, so are many people in the government. And therefore the BJP has earned the Wokes’ suspicion and hatred in many cases. So, they targeted them as the fascist from the beginning and there was a certain degree of sympathy between Trump and Modi, just as it was between the BJP and the GOP, which is still in some ways there. The new Republicans, like all nationalists, have no ill will towards the BJP. They may not know about them, most of them think they are probably Buddhists. Because most Americans have not realized that India is Hindu even now, but the fact is that they have no particular gripe with them. They are quite willing to talk to them and even make them friends especially if they need to oppose China. On the other hand, the Democrats who are generally controlled by the ultra liberal lobby, definitely hated the BJP and they are imposing increasing sanctions against India. They have now gone all the way to calling it Azad Kashmir, not PoK.

They are restoring relations with ISI, they are providing money for the Pakistani army, they are making all sorts of wins to Pakistan while putting India essentially on the blacklist. And this is very clearly due to the fact that India has not gone along with them on Russia, with regard to Ukraine. And that for them is anathema because it implies that India, Russia and even China eventually could be together at least on certain issues, which is basically opposing and replacing Western hegemony, which is another great goal of the liberal wokes. They certainly want to keep control over the world and anybody who challenges them is going to be targeted and attacked and eventually destroyed if they can get away with it.

MK: All those people who wanted to control the world, the world conquerors and so to speak, always thought of passing on this power and wealth accumulated to their children, creating dynasties, be it the Mughal Dynasty or the Nehru dynasty or any other, anywhere else in the world. The holders of that legacy were invariably your own family. Now in this case, the Wokes don’t believe in family, most of them don’t even want to have children. LGBTQX are certainly not the most reproductive people in the world. Till they shift reproduction into labs and then they have these designer babies come out in whatever shade, color and size they want, till then they have nothing. Who will they pass on the world to? So this power mongering and desire to control the world including wanting 10 percent of the population and wanting the rest of the 90 to just disappear, and if they won’t do it willingly then to decimate them through all kinds of technological means, so no bloodshed but they will invent vaccines. The point that I’m trying to make is this. None of these people have yet found a way to be immortal.

Secondly, this decimation of all institutions, especially family, sense of community, religion, Dharma, tradition, culture, what are they going to be left with and who do they pass it on to? These deracinated individuals who are completely rootless, where they want to plant these people and what are these people going to do? I mean the world doesn’t make sense, it has to have certain logic. Either they should have by now found a formula to be immortal so they’ll be in control forever, that makes sense. About two or three years ago, one of my nephews started talking in this language that he wanted x percentage of people gone. I knew him as a very young idealistic person who was full of good intentions, wanted to do good to the world and suddenly when I heard from him this, I thought it was his own fantasy. I got worried, in fact I thought he needed therapy. 

I thought it was something that he thought because in India when you move around whether you want to travel by Metro or you’re out on the street, you feel the pressure of overpopulation. So, I thought that this very idealistic young person had come up with a rather bizarre idea, till I found out that some of the smartest brains or those considered some of the smartest cutting-edge brains in the world, have actually created a whole ideology out of it. And this is more noxious than the class war ideology or the class war formula given by Marx, which created genocide after genocide. Wherever Marxism planted itself firmly it led to massive genocides. Now they’re doing it in the name of liberalism, they’re doing it in the name of individualism. But what’s left of the individual, what ground does this individual stand on? 

CC: You cannot assume that the people who head, fund or promote such ideas necessarily apply them to themselves. George Soros has had a family, he has children, his sons are very powerfully placed. I’m not even sure how many children he has but his son is one of the leading billionaires in New York city. So clearly, they don’t see a succession being necessarily denied to them personally. They may not think the same about the vast masses of humanity. When you talk about the idea of reducing the population, it’s a very old one. It has roots in eugenics, it was embraced by the Nazis since they felt that the lordly race, the pure race, the Aryans have to reproduce in large numbers, but the inferior races had to be wiped out because they essentially use land that could have been much better used by the Aryans. By the way, this was not so far from the ideas of some of the colonizers who felt there were hardly any useful people in Africa. We can take the land and make it really productive with our technologies, and where do these people go? Well, look at what the Americans did with the natives, the Indians. They basically kicked them out and pushed them out and tried to kill as many as possible, because they wanted land. This is very much part of the human instinct.

MK: Yeah, you’re right. Western culture and Abrahamics are essentially predatory. Their ideologies are morphing into newer and newer illnesses, they don’t stop.

CC: There are many forms of social Darwinism, and they certainly have an effect on the realities we are living in. The fact is that if you look at even China with its one child policy. China completely embraced the idea that you have to reduce your population by hook or by crook, and of course now they realize that they have a serious problem because they are aging too fast. And who is going to work to support all those aging people? In America, I have interviewed a friend, Catherine Austin Fitts, who was the head of the Housing and the Urban Development Department under Ronald Reagan. She was under secretary and she told me bluntly on that interview, on that podcast that the US has decided 30 years ago that the population was growing too much on the one hand, and on the other hand people were too old which was bankrupting the insurance and social security systems. So they decided means had to be adopted to reduce life expectancy and they did.

Americans are dying younger now than they did 20 years ago, so you see some policies are adopted even though they are not visible, but they are there in whatever way you can analyze them. You will find that they have very conveniently adopted policies in the name of Public Health, Security, etc which all sound very good but in the end what you get is people getting sick, getting obese and dying younger. So, you can see that these policies have been at work and now we are of course coming to a sort of a head because we’re realizing that there are just too many people and what is going to happen to our planet especially in Asia, Africa. So naturally the people who live in less populated countries, where the population is actually diminishing, are actually shrinking and are very worried about what they will do when they are just a few. These huge masses are coming into their land and they don’t have enough resources to live in their own lands. So that is where you get the thought that somehow you must do something about it. You can imagine that some thinking is going on especially in military scientific circles.

MK: There’s been talk of clash of civilizations, mostly in the context of Islam and Christianity, though I honestly don’t see much of a clash. I see them as twin brothers or first cousins at least. The real clash is with the Indic faith traditions or Indic cultures. And here what strikes me is that the entire Abrahamic world is based on a certain contempt for the past, not Islam. But certainly the Christian world, whereas the people hitherto existing on the surface of this Earth were all far behind us, we are the smartest and there’s this theory of linear progression. So you move from Stone Age to Copper age to Industrial Revolution and so on and so forth. And today’s World Order is seen as a certain Acme, so it’s as though natural linear progression. That’s how Society moves. Whereas in the Hindu world view, our past was seen as so much more glorious than anything available in today’s world. So the concept of Ramrajya still carries a deep emotional resonance, and we think that ruler-ruled relationships couldn’t have been better anywhere in the world. The manner in which Ram or Yudhishthir or even as recent as Ahilyabai Holkar, or the dynasty in Kerala who followed very traditional norms of governance ruled, is commendable. The British demonized them all but the fact is that these were far better governed societies, because they took their notion of their role as rulers from the classical texts. From the Ramayana, from Mahabharata, from Manusmriti, from a whole range of Shastric or Dharmik texts. 

But the West is so hostile and the fact that we Indians or Hindus cling to it, Islamists cling to their past because again they are not allowed. The punishment for wanting even one small change in the message that came to them 1400 years ago is death. So they dare not change anything and therefore they have to cling to it through force. Hindus have no such fear of disowning, you can disown your Shastras, you can be an atheist, nobody is going to come to kill you for that. Yet we stay connected and that connection is not going and therefore I feel the West really hits us with subliminal fury as to why we refuse to be modernized, become good and sound Macaulay putras. Macaulay tried and succeeded in the sense of mass producing deracinated Hindus. But those who retain even a touch of their traditional value system stay connected to the past. They conceive of a future more in terms of the ideal set forth by the past. Our notion is cyclical, it is not linear, we are not at the Acme of progress. On the contrary, we see this age as Kaliyug. The age of evil. This clash of civilization, is there ever going to be a meeting ground?

CC: The fact is that the West is also facing a very fierce internal conflict now, because a lot of people are rising against what they perceive increasingly as a Monumental failure of Western modern civilization in spite of its stupendous technological achievements. Now what we call progress is again a favorite word of the left, particularly the Wokes, which is that you have LGBTs everywhere because that’s progressive, otherwise you are regressive and homophobic. There is a conflict between India and the West and of course India is rather isolated against many forces. You talked about Macaulay but the fact is that as we all know there are lots of Indians who have very gladly converted to the Woke ethics and who are living either in America or in India or in Europe, and who are supporting the penetration of Woke ideas in India. Some of them sincerely think that it’s all for good, and others with ulterior motives. But the fact is that the West is in my view and I’m not alone in this, on the brink of collapse. And maybe in some way perversely the Wokes are also welcoming that, because they realize that the only thing that they can eventually achieve is destruction.

But if you look at the state of the major economies in the West, if you look at the condition of the banks of the major corporations, of the households, you realize that the level of debt is going to precipitate a huge crash, which will be as bad or worse than the 1929 crash. And that depression will force a complete re-engineering or reconstruction of all the institutions that are now ruling the roost. The United Nations, World Bank, IMF you name them, all these big NGOs, it’s all going for a toss in the next few years. The fact is that we are going in that direction, it’s going to happen. Some of us have been predicting it for the last 20 years or more, beginning with 2001 we could see that things were really taking a turn for the worse very quickly. We are at the real breaking point and that in my view and in the view of many will give India and other civilizations that have retained a connection with their past, a chance to restore a healthier, more natural and more sustainable World Order. Because many of the leaders of this current so-called Woke Revolution are going to collapse and will not be able to impose their will on others.

MK: That’s very good news, and I just hope that the British, for example, don’t come seeking asylum in India when the Taliban and ISI take over Britain. Because India has been the most favorite Asylum place for all persecuted people of the world. 

CC: We must be careful about not making blanket statements. Are there elements common to certain ideologies and religions? Yes. Still they are very different in their application and because they were created in very different environments and in very different times, so I wouldn’t be able to say anything. 

MK: Many people have commented that Wokes are partners of Jihadi terrorists, which I think on the whole you agree with, that by and large especially in the context of India you see them on the side of Jihadi terrorists.

CC: In the West too, they are generally very muted in their criticism, they favor what they call peaceful reactions which are not necessarily very helpful. And they take a much harder line with what they call the far right. I mean it’s very interesting in countries like France, England, Germany. If you are far right then you are guilty of all sorts of crimes. I’ll give you an example of the National rally in France which was what could have been called a right-wing party with a strong social agenda 40 years ago. They would not have been out of place with the world. But now they have become far right and they’ll be far right forever. It’s like the same as applied by the way to RSS, even if they never take any violent action they are still violent because that’s the way they are and that’s the way we want them to be. 

We certainly are not against any particular person or community that has certain attitudes to life or certain habits which may or may not be healthy and natural. This is not the issue. We are basically facing a political agenda which is totalitarian and hegemonic, and that’s what we are opposed to. We are not trying to cast certain people into some sort of hell because we don’t like the way they live. I mean that’s not our attitude. Our attitude is simply to ward off the danger of subverting society by following totally irrational and destructive ideologies. We have seen that under Marxism in the Soviet Union and China and we see it again now in a different form in many societies, and in fact all  societies are attacked to various extents by that. Power has its own imperative, once any organization comes to power it cannot be meek, because by definition power is a form of imposition even if it is done with a great deal of consent. So that we have to agree. Realistically if you read Saint Augustine who was only five centuries after Christ he was already saying that I believe in Christianity because I see how powerful the church is. We are no longer talking only about the message of Christ, we are talking about an organization which had the power to submit a lot of people if not all to its will and that is what made it hegemonic.

MK: Where in the world do you see hope? Which part of the world do you see acting more sanely as against the Woke dominated world.

CC: I see a reawakening in countries in the West where people who are rejecting this ideological tyranny are rising in various ways and forms. Whether it’s in Hungary, in Italy, in France, in Spain, Poland. Italy has got its own baggage of a very antagonistic nationalism with the nostalgia for past greatness and trying to fight all its neighbors and that’s not going anywhere I’m afraid. But beyond that I think that there are indeed some very positive movements emerging, any action generates a reaction, so the reaction eventually takes place. The coalition of countries that’s coming together in the format of BRICS and SCO is very positive, because it poses a challenge to the hegemonic West. It essentially builds an alternative model. Now, the alternative model has problems, it’s not well defined, but we can see it express itself in the decision to form an alternative currency which will be based on real value. It will reorient the world towards real values and that’s very hopeful for the future, even though many people are of course aghast at anything which involves China in a leading role. Certain forces are generated which at a given time play a positive role by preventing another force from taking over completely.

MK: To my mind, one of the most deadly symbols of this globalized Woke economy is the credit card. And now this new form of currency, it just takes away all power. You don’t control your resources anymore and they can be confiscated, they can be blocked anytime in the way for example the West did with even Russia’s money lying in its banks. It just refused to release money that belonged to Russia.

CC: They call it Central Bank Digital Currencies. Basically you are given credit as long as they like you, but then if they don’t like something they stop you. Israel was a test tube for this because they started following people around with their cell phones and if people met somebody who was positive with regard to COVID, they warned this person on the phone to go back home immediately and not get out. Because you have been in touch with somebody who is tested positive therefore you are not supposed to get out. This is the way that technically the financial system could operate. You have been in touch with people who are involved in criminal activities therefore we are canceling your accounts and you are no longer able to use your money. China is experimenting with that and the West is following very avidly in fact the West may get there even before China.

MK: People in India better watch out and keep your assets in a form that they are under your control. Like traditional Indian Housewives used to keep it in the form of gold. I don’t know if that’s still prevalent or people are doing other things, but your money should be under your own control. Don’t trust any Government with all your assets, because the governments are themselves being managed by mysterious forces who are certainly not trustworthy.

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